Episode 1: Plotted in Darkness
Let’s face it. Everyone wanted to listen to this podcast because we wanted to either confirm or deny J.K. Rowling’s transphobia. Most of us probably weren’t here to learn about the witch hunts of old, or Rowling’s story of writing Harry Potter, or about Harry Potter as a 2000s repeat of the Satanic Panic for Christians. And at first glance, these things don’t have to do with Rowling’s transphobia. But in fact, they were a tactic for setting up a very intentional narrative about Rowling as a victim: from men, from religious extremists, from inquisitors.
A tale of two backlashes
From the right
From the Twitter Spaces interview quotes above through the first half of the series, Megan teaches us to get comfortable slipping seamlessly between Rowling’s two backlashes—from Christians of the 2000s and from trans people and allies today—as equivalent situations. In this narrative, Rowling has managed to piss off two sides which hate each other. Therefore, they are both wrong and Rowling sits smugly in the self-righteous middle.
Megan begins,
J.K. Rowling is one of the most successful authors in the history of publishing and for the past 25 years, she’s also been one of the most beloved. […] But in the summer of 2020, Rowling published a string of tweets about one of the most polarizing subjects in society right now, sex and gender. She waded into a conflict about transgender rights and the way she believed some activists were eroding hard won rights for women. There was an explosive reaction to Rowling’s tweets, which led many, including lifelong fans of her work, to condemn her and to call for her books to be banned, boycotted and in some cases burned.
Megan Phelps-Roper, The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling, Episode 1: Plotted in Darkness
Notice how vague it all is. That’s the method of the entire podcast. If you don’t explicitly name anti-trans violence, you don’t have to condemn it. That’s why the tweets were about “sex and gender,” why she “waded into a conflict,” only to cause what feels like an acutely disproportionate “explosive reaction.”
From the left
After explaining that she grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church (and “spent the decade since investigating belief and how it compels us to act and identify and how it colors and shapes the world we inhabit” by doing what, I’m not sure), Megan pivots into the other “backlash”:
And reading Rowling’s tweets and then her transformation in the eyes of many who had loved her, it surprised me because growing up, it was my community that thought J.K. Rowling was evil and it was other Christian fundamentalists who had amassed in force to condemn Rowling and to call her work dangerous. […] Rowling, even though she’s inspired profound adoration throughout her career with fans all over the planet, she’s also been the subject of intense, widespread and vocal backlashes from people whose politics could not be more at odds. And for the past year, I’ve been trying to figure out why. What is it about this woman and her work that has captured the ire of very different groups of people across time?
Megan Phelps-Roper, The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling, Episode 1: Plotted in Darkness
As much as Megan can’t comprehend this mystery, I simply can’t comprehend why it’s a mystery. Why do Christians not like stories about wizards and witchcraft? There are Bible verses condemning wizards and witchcraft. Why do trans people not like it when you’re transphobic? They… want to live and be left alone. But if Megan really wanted to answer the questions because she literally just wanted the answers, the entire series would be 6 minutes long.
Megan, and/or her editors at The Free Press, used one of Rowling’s very first lines as a hook for the announcement article: “You could not have misunderstood me more profoundly.” I personally believe that they intentionally frame this quote as being about Rowling’s trans views—no, you’ve got it all wrong! I didn’t say what I said!—when it is actually about her legacy. She goes on, “I do not walk around my house thinking about my legacy. What a pompous way to live your life. Walking around thinking, what will my legacy be? Whatever! I’ll be dead! I care about now. I care about the living.” This flippancy is how Megan and Rowling’s conversation in Rowling’s “snug,” “cozy,” “homey” castle begins.
The rest of episode 1 catches you off guard because it exclusively discusses Rowling’s abusive marriage at the time she had the idea and wrote the manuscript for Harry Potter before being catapulted to fame. As everyone who criticizes Rowling says, I can’t imagine the pain she must have gone through at the hands of her ex-husband, and it is a relief that she made it out safe and had a support system to rely on. Hers is not a situation I would not wish upon anyone. That said, Megan and her co-creators still strategically placed this story at the beginning of their Rowling deep dive so we always have the image of her as the damsel, the innocent victim at the mercy of a violent man.
You keep using the word “equivocating”, I do not think it means what you think it means. What I think you mean is “equate”.
Oh my gosh!!! Thanks for telling me. Well they definitely equivocate too! 😅
Yes they do 🙂
It seems like your review of the podcast is mainly about Barry Weiss’s connections to problematic people. I can see why that might lead you to dismiss the podcast as a waste of time, but you say you listened to the whole thing. I’m curious what you found a chance phobic exactly about the podcast itself?
Hi, please see pages 2-9
Hi Rebekah,
Thanks for this post. It led me to actually listen to the podcast and move beyond the limited perspective I had received from the Sam Harris’ interview with Megan. It also led me to listen to the Contrapoints response, which was very helpful. I recognize the significant effort that goes into putting together a lengthy post like this. It was clearly a labor of love and you offer many good observations on how the podcast does not live up to the fair-handed intentions espoused by Megan. That said, some aspects of the post caught my attention for less noble reasons, so I want to offer what I hope is received as friendly, constructive criticism. I really don’t want to misrepresent you in any way, so if I have misunderstood something then please let me know.
To start, I want to note that your many valid points are more likely to be summarily dismissed by readers who think that you are acting in bad faith – which I assume you don’t want. Your passion comes through loud and clear, but it appears to come with a serving of hyperbole and speculation which can be easily interpreted as a less severe version of the bad faith activism that the podcast is critiquing. To clarify what I’m referring to, some examples that caught my attention are:
1. On the first page, you (drawing from Caelan) accuse Megan of selfishly using people as mere plot devices in her story, then go on to impugn her knowledge of how to counter bad ideas and equate it to what the rest of us figure out in kindergarten (more on this below – she may know more about this than you think).
2. For Episode 1, you speculate that Megan was coached by the Free Press on what to say and then question her honesty about the “highly, highly” doubtful origins of the letter for which you’re “almost positive” you know the origins. The dot joining which you use to reach that speculation is reminiscent of conspiratorial thinking.
3. For Episode 4, you reinterpret Rowling’s statement that biological women “require certain protections” into an assertion that trans women don’t need protections (I believe she acknowledged this need at some point), and interpret the discussion of Karen White instead of cis men’s crimes as evidence that “they’re not concerned about women’s safety” (rather than just the consequence of focused discussion), and take Goldberg citing the need for clear delineations as evidence that she “doesn’t care” “that trans people are fighting for their lives”. These do not read as fair and accurate interpretations. Beyond that, the listing of advertisers in this episode is, whether you intended it or not, going to be interpreted as an endorsement of “cancel culture” by virtue of being read as a suggestion to boycott them.
4. On the last page you claim that they (presumably Megan and Rowling) prefer a world in which “trans people stay at the bottom if they are there at all“. Regardless of your intention, this reads as if you think they might actually want to eliminate trans people altogether.
Again, you’ve made a lot of good points in this post, but I raise these observations because I assume you want those points to be received without being seen as misrepresenting people and acting in bad faith. Which leads me to my second critique…
I may very well be wrong, but it also felt to me like you were not only criticizing Megan’s approach in the context of the podcast, but were also leaning toward skepticism of the open dialogue strategy in the context of social justice issues in general. I infer this from the observations above, in the quotes you select from Caelan, and in your handling of Megan’s response to Natalie’s “indirect bigotry”. Though Natalie’s video shows how antagonistic activism isn’t anything new (contrary to many claims), the mere presence of that behavior in past successful movements does not infer that it was necessary for their success.
More practically, there has been a fair bit of work to study persuasion, in both the individual and larger social contexts. If you are not already familiar with David McRaney and his “You are not so smart” podcast, I recommend taking a look. If you want your activism to be effective then I suggest that he is a voice worth listening to. In case you haven’t already guessed it, the most effective strategies have a lot in common with Megan’s idealism and stand in opposition to more antagonistic methods. While it is important for a movement to grab the public’s attention, not all attention is good for the success of the movement.
Lastly, though I have no stake in being a Megan Phelps-Roper apologist I thought it would be interesting to try and steelman her approach with this podcast:
1. If she is in fact aware of the research noted above (as I would guess) then the grace she extends to the gender critical viewpoint can also be seen as her engaging in the kind of dialogue which is necessary to gain the trust of those who hold that perspective, which makes them more open to the alternative viewpoints that are shared.
2. While the series title does lend itself more to the implication that Rowling is the witch than the witch hunter, let’s not forget that (a) Rowling’s fame is based on witchcraft, (b) Megan’s background was deep in the anti-witchcraft era of Harry Potter, (c) witch trials are classic examples of mob justice, which is a prominent theme of the series, and (d) a catchy title is important to downloads. She has said the title was intended to be open to interpretation, including directly stating this in the first episode. In the absence of unambiguous indications to the contrary, we should not assume that is a lie.
3. As far as I know, Megan doesn’t have any kind of history that puts her in the same camp as Rowling on gender issues. Guilt-by-association is a precarious criteria for pigeonholing somebody, especially when the association is in a context where she explicitly tells us that she is trying to not take a side. Even if you think she failed in that goal, your perspective on that is not a reliable insight into her intentions.
4. Megan’s history of being heavily focused on the promotion of open, civilized conversation regardless of ideological differences is good reason to believe her when she says that her goal in this case is no different, even if the end result does not appear to be as balanced as she thinks it was. As noted previously, to say that she is the “epitome of bad faith” is mind-reading her intentions.
5. Rowling is the centerpiece of the project and its success is likely dependent on Rowling’s approval. If she pulled her support, it may not have ever been released. That’s a tough line to walk and will inevitably bias the result in favor of not alienating her.
6. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I read you as saying that Megan’s past has given her a “dangerous lens” because it causes her to mistake the expressions of pain and hurt in the more aggressive interactions as equivalent to the expression of hateful dogma from her time at Westboro. The distinction between emotional responses and hateful dogma is fair, but it also does not mean that there is no dogmatic rhetoric to be found on the trans-activist side. I think Natalie did a good job of acknowledging this, and we shouldn’t assume that Megan is also not aware of this distinction even if it was not overtly addressed in the podcast (though perhaps it was and I just don’t recall).
7. While episode 7 does not feature Megan confronting Rowling with vigor, the questioning of Rowling was such that – in my opinion – Rowling was cast in a far less flattering light than she was in the first 5 episodes. If that’s a legitimate observation then that is a telling way to end the series.
Sorry for the length of this comment. I hope you can appreciate that I’m not trying to be adversarial and why I would think it was worth sharing these observations.
Hi Travis, thanks for your comment and for waiting for my reply! I’ll do my best to address your points below.
(Next numbered list!)
First time reader here, and I think Travis R made an excellent point about:
“To ostart, I want to note that your many valid points are more likely to be summarily dismissed by readers who think that you are acting in bad faith – which I assume you don’t want. Your passion comes through loud and clear, but it appears to come with a serving of hyperbole and speculation which can be easily interpreted as a less severe version of the bad faith activism that the podcast is critiquing.”
What kind of blog is this? I found it on a top list of best skeptics blogs, but it reads more like bad faith activism to me. What I’ve read so far isn’t true skepticism, which makes me worried, because bad faith activism is dangerous to me and my feelings, in fact it is hate speech towards my feelings. I would like you to stop it if you would please.
I left a comment here a few days ago that included a couple links and so was held for moderation. Wanted to alert you in case it slipped your attention.
WordPress had flagged it, so I didn’t see it. Thank you for taking the time to write it! I look forward to reading it when I have a little time 🙂
Rebekah,
Thank you for responding even after all this time. I honestly never intended to spur any kind of debate with those numbered points. The first list was just an attempt to backup the claim that you were sometimes characterizing people with uncharitable attributions that go beyond the information we have, and which can therefore appear to be the kind of “bad faith” engagement that the podcast was in part critiquing. The second list was an attempt to show an example of how one could offer a more charitable interpretation of Megan’s position.
Regardless, I want to highlight the part of the comment that was between those lists. If I could have a redo, I would drop the lists because those clearly were not helpful. I should take my own advice. The larger goal was to encourage you to become familiar with the research around persuasion and how people’s minds change because I sensed you leaning into a more antagonistic approach which I understand to be counterproductive to effective activism. You are welcome to disagree with that assessment, but I thought it was worth sharing that perspective. If nothing else, I recommend looking at adding David McRaney’s most recent book to your non-fiction reading list, and\or his podcast to your rotation.
I understand you think you know a lot about this subject matter because you listened to a podcast, but it doesn’t seem to have occurred to you that your tone is very condescending and dismissive.
It is certain that, at the very least, Phelps-Roper lacks the expertise or journalistic ability to provide a thorough portrayal of Rowling and the people who oppose her (VERY OBVIOUSLY) transmisist agenda. It is even more certain that Rowling herself hates trans people. I do not consider this language to be too strong. She is funding Posey Parker, a genocidal transmisist who is very open about her desire to force trans people to detransition, and if they won’t do that, throw them in prison. Or worse. And she is willing to throw absolutely everything else under the bus in pursuit of this goal, including women’s reproductive rights. She’s also willing to associate with a woman who started a sexual relationship with a minor (who could not consent under the law in many places) and got pregnant by that child, simply because that woman is as openly hateful of trans people as she is. Rowling is long past the “a few concerns” stage of things, and we should not allow her to pretend her motives are pure.
I think it’s important to critique ideas where important matters of justice are concerned, but to use the inflammatory words “insidious” and “transphobic” is so clearly hyperbolic that it makes you appear unserious. It gives off the aroma of click bait and performative outrage that is such a turn off to anyone not already convinced. If you are preaching to your own choir, I hope it’s gratifying.
What title would you prefer?
I recently listened to the podcast. In many ways I was disappointed with it (and pissed off by it), as well as with Megan, considering her past. While she seeks to avoid repeating the sins of her past, she wound up in the opposite extreme doing the exact same thing. I’m also working my way through the series to analyze them deeper.
I literally stopped episode 1 within about 15 seconds to investigate the sponsor. Fire (thefire.org). The first red flag for me was the free speech absolutism. This is often an indicator of an agenda-driven mission that claims high ideals, but is limited in it’s scope to just being anti-woke. I read the article on their lawsuit against CA. I picked a single quote to investigate, “persons that say they are ‘not a racist’ are in denial.”, and followed it down a rabbit hole. The first thing I noticed was Fire is extremely loath to link to outside sources. This tells me that seek to maintain control over the narrative, via echo chamber. The quote I picked was cut down from a much longer sentence (which is why I left the period in their quote):
“Persons that say they are ‘not a racist’ are in denial of the inequities and racial problems that exist.” (Taken from I. X. Kendi’s book “How to be Antiracist”)
Fire’s misquote means people who claims to not be a racist are denying that they are. The real quote means they’re denying the existence of inequities and racial problems. Those are two vastly different things. I don’t agree with the full sentence either, but Fire changing the context is outright lying and manipulation. (I don’t agree that saying your not a racist is denial of the problems. Racism, at it’s core, is literally the belief in the superiority of one’s race, everything else is a manifestation of that belief. One can simultaneously believe their race is not superior and know that inequality and racism exists. People who aren’t racist can also be infected with racist ideologies that permeate our society repeated ad nauseum – think “Affirmative Action is reverse racism” – and not even realize the origin or full context of these ideologies.)
One shouldn’t be surprised about the lopsided presentation of the podcast given it’s sponsorship. Megan literally sold out. It’s funny how quickly she went down the “dark web” hole. It does have a tempting message that seems shiny and logical on the surface. Until one begins to ask certain questions and doesn’t take them at face value. Smart people are very intelligent at rationalizing their irrationality.
I do believe that JKR doesn’t intend harm, but her extreme focus driven by her horrific past blinds her to the suffering of others (rather than enhancing empathy) and limits her “research” to only that which confirms her biases. Along with the huge array of logical fallacies she commits, she is incapable of understanding that the people who once vilified her didn’t become her allies, they’re using her to justify their hatred of LGBTQ people. If conservatives can separate the T from the rest (a tactic that has taken hold in recent years), then they can separate the rest and regain the ground they “lost” and usher back the pre-Stonewall era of bigotry and hatred that they enjoy so much. Many conservatives and christians don’t even realize that there are eugenicists hiding within their ranks. They play the long game and keep their messages of hatred alive. JKR doesn’t seem to even be aware how she continues to feed this insipid infection of society. I am in no way excusing JKR, ultimately, she made the choices that have hurt a lot of people and has continues to remain willfully blind to broader reality.
“The Free Press is an anti-trans publication with a record of distorting and excluding information that doesn’t fit their harmful narrative”
The amount of projection in this diatribe is something to behold. Even more ironic, considering the latest blog titled, “On Writing White” is coming from a privileged white who regurgitates white talking points in the most white way possible.
You came in with a conclusion, then perused through The Free Press looking for “evidence” to support your conclusion.
Bari Weiss didn’t leave NYT because it was “not conservative—or centrist—enough for her” — she said she left because NYT did not defend her against alleged bullying by colleagues and caving into Twitter critics. This folks, is the self-described “critical thinker” and “skeptic,” who couldn’t bother to spend a few minutes to fact-check — but that of course, wouldn’t fit her narrative. She needs to smear her opponents (how dare someone be critical of my religion?) Then she goes on ranting about FIRE because, gasp, they support free speech! You know free speech — the thing that’s part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Well, little Miss whitey here doesn’t like free speech or Universal Declaration of Human Rights — it hurts her narrative when people can talk back and criticize her ideology. She prefers to go back to the 19th century when fanatic whites like her were free to proselytize and force her religion on others without resistance. Ah, the good ‘ol days!
You know what is “harmful?” A “movement” where its members harass women, who regularly send death and rape threats to women, who use emotional blackmailing, who try to silence critics and get them fired. It’s not surprising that depression among girls and women has skyrocketed, and now white liberal women are the most unhappy group in the country. Congrats — this is the accomplishment of your “movement.”
The rest of the non-WHITE Western world completely rejects your gender ideology — perhaps should stop excluding this information that doesn’t fit your backward narrative.
I note that Rebekah Kohlhepp is a Middle Class, Heterosexual, CIS, White Woman. Need any more be said?
I’m proud of you for noticing
It is incredible to me how much hate can be stirred up against people trying to make things better through conversation and understanding.
We truly are becoming lost.
And it hurts to see this come up as a first Google hit from searching for the podcast, it really does.
You can speculate and speculate, but while speculating please remember to default to the ‘I don’t actually know’ standpoint. Try to retain at least some humility. Don’t reach conclusions based on assumptions that bring you to validate and perpetuate this trend of negativity in the world. Please. There’s already far too much of it.
I’ll admit I didn’t read much of this blog past page 2, and I’m yet to listen to the podcast itself, but to tear someone like Megan down like this, having been completely taken in by another hurt and hateful soul on the internet, just highlights the toxicity of it all.
Please, if you have it in you, take a step back, look at all of this objectively, and recognise the damage you’re doing here.
(haha, like this will have any effect whatsoever…)
What can one do, these days?
Q: “Hey guys, let’s talk about all this, try to see each other’s perspective, work together to create a better future for everyone…”
A: “How dare you! What gives you the right… Who even are you? Damn you to hell!”
…
Honestly, I come to these kinds of posts hoping to get a better understanding of ‘the other side’ of the left, and I invariably come out so frustrated. You’ve pulled out such excellent quotes from the podcast, but don’t respond to the content of those quotes, instead falling into whatabouts, hyperbole, and strawmanning.
I truly want to understand how the statistics, biology, and history of male violence and domination; how the biological differences that make heart disease, stroke, diabetes, lung and airway illnesses, medicinal side effects appear different in men and women; how lopping off healthy reproductive body parts to affirm a feeling is helpful; how these factor into the trans debate. It’s like these issues get raised and then summarily dismissed as belonging to the far right. Aren’t these material realities worth discussing, worth recording in census and other statistics? I’m truly a far left woman who never had much interest in feminism until this issue.
Why is it that it is always about trans women? Not trans men? What is it about the experience of women needing to accept not just medically transitioned men, but men with penises into intimate spaces such as showers and beds at sports facilities, hospitals, trains, and prisons? And why aren’t men complaining similarly about trans men?
Again it seems to just be away of suggesting people can’t have concerns about the issues raised without it being brushed away as ‘transphobia’.