Episode 3: A New Pyre
Episode 3 is a total shock after the subtlety of episodes 1 and 2. It begins:
[Megan]: Can you talk to me about some of the threats that you’ve received over the past few years?
[J.K. Rowling:] There have been a lot, a huge amount, as every woman will know, who speaks up on this issue, a huge amount of “I want her to choke on my fat trans dick.” You know, like very sexualized abuse.
Megan Phelps-Roper and J.K. Rowling, The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling, Episode 3: A New Pyre
This victimhood sets the scene.
Enabling monsters
For about 15 minutes, Megan and Rowling talk about Harry Potter‘s rise to fame online and the growth of its online fan community. They touch on MuggleNet’s trolls and the gay teenagers who found a home in the Harry Potter fandom; then they reminisce upon Rowling’s experience giving the Harvard commencement address in 2008. Here is the full passage from which Megan shares bits and pieces:
Unlike any other creature on this planet, human beings can learn and understand without having experienced. They can think themselves into other people’s places. Of course this is a power like my brand of fictional magic that is morally neutral. One might use such an ability to manipulate or control, just as much as to understand or sympathise, and many prefer not to exercise their imaginations at all. They choose to remain comfortably within the bounds of their own experience, never troubling to wonder how it would feel to have been born other than they are. They can refuse to hear screams or peer inside cages. They can close their minds and hearts to any suffering that does not touch them personally. They can refuse to know. I might be tempted to envy people who can live that way, except that I do not think they have any fewer nightmares than I do. Choosing to live in narrow spaces leads to a form of mental agoraphobia, and that brings its own terrors. I think the willfully unimaginative see more monsters. They are often more afraid. What is more, those who choose not to empathize enable real monsters, for without ever committing an act of outright evil ourselves, we collude with it through our own apathy.
J.K. Rowling’s 2008 Harvard commencement speech
Searing, bitter irony.
Tumblr snowflakes
Soon after, Megan is talking to Angela Nagle, whom she introduces as a “writer and internet historian.” Megan and Nagle, together with Helen Lewis and Katherine Dee, describe Tumblr as an early home for two things: child porn and the exploration of gender identities.
But it was taken to such an extreme that people began to describe this as the snowflake, the person who constructs a totally kind of boutique and unique identity for themselves, and then guards that identity in a very, very sensitive way and reacts in an enraged way when anyone does not respect the uniqueness of their identity.
Angela Nagle, The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling, Episode 3: A New Pyre
They then take this odd but harmless community of young people exploring their identities, and say it was “somewhat similar” to 4chan, a site that has been a breeding ground for several mass shootings.
Notice how, even if they don’t come out and say “Tumblr and 4chan are equal,” the women speak of them in the same tone, poking fun at the silly identities on Tumblr and never once condemning the violent culture of 4chan. Both sites are treated as simply peculiar.
And at the same time, you had on the other side of the political spectrum, you could say the most insensitive culture imaginable, which was the culture of 4chan. And the culture of 4chan was really based around transgression and offensiveness and the kind of fun of being offensive. […] You know, the entire culture became a sort of a one upmanship of who can post the most outrageous or offensive thing imaginable. And so they’re going to make Holocaust jokes and they’re going to make Anne Frank jokes.
Angela Nagle, The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling, Episode 3: A New Pyre
They share a soundbite of what’s presumably a 4chan user saying, “Making an ethnostate is hard work. You really should ask yourself, what eugenics programs are you going to use? What type of plumbing do you use in your internment camps?” before Megan says, “So 4chan, if you’ve never heard of it, it was actually somewhat similar to Tumblr in that it was largely anonymous and text and image based.”
A bad etymology lesson
While they don’t acknowledge the shootings that 4chan spawned, Megan recounts how 4chan users would steal and leak celebrities’ nude photos, concluding “So in a lot of ways the norms and mores of Tumblr and 4chan end up being these kind of mirror images of one another.” Nagle agrees: Tumblr’s “ultra-sensitivity” reinforces 4chan’s “anti-sensitivity.” Identifying as genderqueer is very similar to joking about internment camps, apparently. Lewis chimes in: “If you’ve ever heard the kind of right wing activist railing against woke culture, then you’ll be hearing them condemning phrases that were popularized on Tumblr.”
Unknown voices read, “Micro-aggression. Trigger warnings. Latinx, nonbinary, two-spirit, transgender.” Lewis adds, “Even the idea of being cis as opposed to being trans, you know, the idea that everybody was one of those two things.” Megan explicitly says, “Many of them can be traced back to their increased use on Tumblr,” and “you can go back and kind of watch how these ideas start to migrate outward from Tumblr.” Lewis again adds, “The idea of privilege was very big. You know, the idea that you have white privilege, male privilege, cis privilege. That really came from Tumblr and has had a sort of odd effect on discourse ever since.”
I never said that
I share these quotes to show how frustrating it must be for listeners to ask Megan for clarification.
Others have noted this, but the observation was that many of these ideas were popularized on Tumblr, not that they originated there. And it’s not necessarily the ideas themselves that are outlandish, but the versions that emerged and evolved on Tumblr were more likely to be.
— Megan Phelps-Roper (@meganphelps) March 1, 2023
Instead of ever owning anything, admitting that something she says is wrong, or even discussing what she said, it’s always “I never said that.” It’s always “Heavily implying something is not actually saying it.” I wonder why they would even make the podcast when, conveniently, no one actually ever says anything, only shares their observations, when a critic tries to scrutinize their words. Why they would spend so much time focusing on how these terms feel like they originated on Tumblr, when they do not actually believe that, is beyond me.
(Angela Nagle’s book, which I’ll touch on in a moment, said somewhat more specifically that “Tumblr had put [Judith] Butler’s theory into practice and created an entire subcultural language, set of slogans and style to go with it. […] It was the subcultural digital expression of the fruition of Judith Butler’s ideas.” However, the only examples she gives are a list of unheard-of neogenders and the idea of checking one’s privilege.)
Milo and Michael
A lengthy discussion of Tumblr’s role in the invention of “cancel culture,” and Rowling’s framing as a victim in which cancellation “happened to her” (she was “hit with it” after writing a short story in 2016 depicting Navajo people with racist stereotypes), led Megan and Rowling to discuss the “authoritarianism” Rowling saw in the student protests against Milo Yiannopolous, “who was essentially the culture of 4chan in human form,” giving campus speeches.
And I’m watching from across the pond as he tries to speak on various campuses. And there are protests, riots. “We want him deplatformed. We don’t want him to speak at all.” And I thought it was a terrible strategic error. And my feeling was you are giving this man way more power than he deserves by behaving in this way. It made Milo look sexier and edgier than he deserved to look. I thought it was a strategically appalling turn. Get on that platform and eviscerate his ideas. Get on that platform and expose him for the charlatan that he is. You push back hard, but you’ve given him so much power by refusing to talk. […] I thought they were serving his purposes because he was able to walk away from that saying, look, they won’t even, they don’t dare debate me. This is how dangerous and edgy I am. And I don’t think we want to cast the alt right in that light.
J.K. Rowling, The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling, Episode 3: A New Pyre
(While Rowling talked, Megan also added that “Milo went from relative obscurity to being a regular on prime time television and political talk shows in just a few months,” which is false.)
This was released six days before Michael Knowles would go on CPAC and publicly call for “the eradication of transgenderism from public life entirely,” while the University of Pittsburgh, still, at time of writing, is slated for him to speak on campus on April 18th. This is why we cannot debate the alt-right. Not Milo Yiannolopous, not Michael Knowles. There’s no witty comeback to “I want to eradicate human beings.” If protesting people like that makes them look edgy and sexy, perhaps Rowling hopes that she can be perceived the same way online.
Kill All Normies
This talk of Tumblr, 4chan, and Milo Yiannopolous is actually taken pretty directly from Angela Nagle’s 2017 book Kill All Normies: Online Culture Wars from 4chan and Tumblr to Trump and the Alt-Right.
This article about Nagle’s book is thorough, detailed, and loaded with context. Large sections of the article’s criticism of the book can also apply to this episode, such as when the author says Nagle “laugh[s] along at the alt-right’s chosen [Tumblr-liberal] scapegoats,” Nagle implies that an article filled with misrepresentations of rape allegations on college campuses is protected free speech, she cites a white nationalist’s dubious claims to justify why men become incels, insinuates that Gamergate was just a response to a terrible “SJW” game, and suggests that trigger warnings are unreasonable.
Finally, another Twitter exchange Megan had regarding this episode was telling.
It’s not about equating these two platforms. It’s about noticing and examining the dynamics within and between them—and the effects they’ve had beyond the confines of the platforms themselves.
— Megan Phelps-Roper (@meganphelps) February 28, 2023
That’s very much a phenomenon worth investigating, but this series is examining ones that are more subtle and pervasive than that. As an imperfect parallel, I think reporting on my former church was often worthwhile,…
— Megan Phelps-Roper (@meganphelps) February 28, 2023
She wasn’t equating them, she was noticing and examining the dynamics between them, you see. And when you try to call out the podcast for not acknowledging the real-world harm generated in 4chan (or anything else that Megan or Rowling obviously imply throughout the series), suddenly that’s not subtle or pervasive enough for this podcast. Not to mention that the counter-example that Megan brings up here, the fact that people who reported on Westboro Baptist Church when she was growing up didn’t simultaneously report on the murder of George Tiller 50 years earlier because his murderer was Christian, is worse than an imperfect parallel, it’s an entirely false equivalency.
Here’s how episode 3 ends…
You keep using the word “equivocating”, I do not think it means what you think it means. What I think you mean is “equate”.
Oh my gosh!!! Thanks for telling me. Well they definitely equivocate too! 😅
Yes they do 🙂
It seems like your review of the podcast is mainly about Barry Weiss’s connections to problematic people. I can see why that might lead you to dismiss the podcast as a waste of time, but you say you listened to the whole thing. I’m curious what you found a chance phobic exactly about the podcast itself?
Hi, please see pages 2-9
Hi Rebekah,
Thanks for this post. It led me to actually listen to the podcast and move beyond the limited perspective I had received from the Sam Harris’ interview with Megan. It also led me to listen to the Contrapoints response, which was very helpful. I recognize the significant effort that goes into putting together a lengthy post like this. It was clearly a labor of love and you offer many good observations on how the podcast does not live up to the fair-handed intentions espoused by Megan. That said, some aspects of the post caught my attention for less noble reasons, so I want to offer what I hope is received as friendly, constructive criticism. I really don’t want to misrepresent you in any way, so if I have misunderstood something then please let me know.
To start, I want to note that your many valid points are more likely to be summarily dismissed by readers who think that you are acting in bad faith – which I assume you don’t want. Your passion comes through loud and clear, but it appears to come with a serving of hyperbole and speculation which can be easily interpreted as a less severe version of the bad faith activism that the podcast is critiquing. To clarify what I’m referring to, some examples that caught my attention are:
1. On the first page, you (drawing from Caelan) accuse Megan of selfishly using people as mere plot devices in her story, then go on to impugn her knowledge of how to counter bad ideas and equate it to what the rest of us figure out in kindergarten (more on this below – she may know more about this than you think).
2. For Episode 1, you speculate that Megan was coached by the Free Press on what to say and then question her honesty about the “highly, highly” doubtful origins of the letter for which you’re “almost positive” you know the origins. The dot joining which you use to reach that speculation is reminiscent of conspiratorial thinking.
3. For Episode 4, you reinterpret Rowling’s statement that biological women “require certain protections” into an assertion that trans women don’t need protections (I believe she acknowledged this need at some point), and interpret the discussion of Karen White instead of cis men’s crimes as evidence that “they’re not concerned about women’s safety” (rather than just the consequence of focused discussion), and take Goldberg citing the need for clear delineations as evidence that she “doesn’t care” “that trans people are fighting for their lives”. These do not read as fair and accurate interpretations. Beyond that, the listing of advertisers in this episode is, whether you intended it or not, going to be interpreted as an endorsement of “cancel culture” by virtue of being read as a suggestion to boycott them.
4. On the last page you claim that they (presumably Megan and Rowling) prefer a world in which “trans people stay at the bottom if they are there at all“. Regardless of your intention, this reads as if you think they might actually want to eliminate trans people altogether.
Again, you’ve made a lot of good points in this post, but I raise these observations because I assume you want those points to be received without being seen as misrepresenting people and acting in bad faith. Which leads me to my second critique…
I may very well be wrong, but it also felt to me like you were not only criticizing Megan’s approach in the context of the podcast, but were also leaning toward skepticism of the open dialogue strategy in the context of social justice issues in general. I infer this from the observations above, in the quotes you select from Caelan, and in your handling of Megan’s response to Natalie’s “indirect bigotry”. Though Natalie’s video shows how antagonistic activism isn’t anything new (contrary to many claims), the mere presence of that behavior in past successful movements does not infer that it was necessary for their success.
More practically, there has been a fair bit of work to study persuasion, in both the individual and larger social contexts. If you are not already familiar with David McRaney and his “You are not so smart” podcast, I recommend taking a look. If you want your activism to be effective then I suggest that he is a voice worth listening to. In case you haven’t already guessed it, the most effective strategies have a lot in common with Megan’s idealism and stand in opposition to more antagonistic methods. While it is important for a movement to grab the public’s attention, not all attention is good for the success of the movement.
Lastly, though I have no stake in being a Megan Phelps-Roper apologist I thought it would be interesting to try and steelman her approach with this podcast:
1. If she is in fact aware of the research noted above (as I would guess) then the grace she extends to the gender critical viewpoint can also be seen as her engaging in the kind of dialogue which is necessary to gain the trust of those who hold that perspective, which makes them more open to the alternative viewpoints that are shared.
2. While the series title does lend itself more to the implication that Rowling is the witch than the witch hunter, let’s not forget that (a) Rowling’s fame is based on witchcraft, (b) Megan’s background was deep in the anti-witchcraft era of Harry Potter, (c) witch trials are classic examples of mob justice, which is a prominent theme of the series, and (d) a catchy title is important to downloads. She has said the title was intended to be open to interpretation, including directly stating this in the first episode. In the absence of unambiguous indications to the contrary, we should not assume that is a lie.
3. As far as I know, Megan doesn’t have any kind of history that puts her in the same camp as Rowling on gender issues. Guilt-by-association is a precarious criteria for pigeonholing somebody, especially when the association is in a context where she explicitly tells us that she is trying to not take a side. Even if you think she failed in that goal, your perspective on that is not a reliable insight into her intentions.
4. Megan’s history of being heavily focused on the promotion of open, civilized conversation regardless of ideological differences is good reason to believe her when she says that her goal in this case is no different, even if the end result does not appear to be as balanced as she thinks it was. As noted previously, to say that she is the “epitome of bad faith” is mind-reading her intentions.
5. Rowling is the centerpiece of the project and its success is likely dependent on Rowling’s approval. If she pulled her support, it may not have ever been released. That’s a tough line to walk and will inevitably bias the result in favor of not alienating her.
6. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I read you as saying that Megan’s past has given her a “dangerous lens” because it causes her to mistake the expressions of pain and hurt in the more aggressive interactions as equivalent to the expression of hateful dogma from her time at Westboro. The distinction between emotional responses and hateful dogma is fair, but it also does not mean that there is no dogmatic rhetoric to be found on the trans-activist side. I think Natalie did a good job of acknowledging this, and we shouldn’t assume that Megan is also not aware of this distinction even if it was not overtly addressed in the podcast (though perhaps it was and I just don’t recall).
7. While episode 7 does not feature Megan confronting Rowling with vigor, the questioning of Rowling was such that – in my opinion – Rowling was cast in a far less flattering light than she was in the first 5 episodes. If that’s a legitimate observation then that is a telling way to end the series.
Sorry for the length of this comment. I hope you can appreciate that I’m not trying to be adversarial and why I would think it was worth sharing these observations.
Hi Travis, thanks for your comment and for waiting for my reply! I’ll do my best to address your points below.
(Next numbered list!)
First time reader here, and I think Travis R made an excellent point about:
“To ostart, I want to note that your many valid points are more likely to be summarily dismissed by readers who think that you are acting in bad faith – which I assume you don’t want. Your passion comes through loud and clear, but it appears to come with a serving of hyperbole and speculation which can be easily interpreted as a less severe version of the bad faith activism that the podcast is critiquing.”
What kind of blog is this? I found it on a top list of best skeptics blogs, but it reads more like bad faith activism to me. What I’ve read so far isn’t true skepticism, which makes me worried, because bad faith activism is dangerous to me and my feelings, in fact it is hate speech towards my feelings. I would like you to stop it if you would please.
I left a comment here a few days ago that included a couple links and so was held for moderation. Wanted to alert you in case it slipped your attention.
WordPress had flagged it, so I didn’t see it. Thank you for taking the time to write it! I look forward to reading it when I have a little time 🙂
Rebekah,
Thank you for responding even after all this time. I honestly never intended to spur any kind of debate with those numbered points. The first list was just an attempt to backup the claim that you were sometimes characterizing people with uncharitable attributions that go beyond the information we have, and which can therefore appear to be the kind of “bad faith” engagement that the podcast was in part critiquing. The second list was an attempt to show an example of how one could offer a more charitable interpretation of Megan’s position.
Regardless, I want to highlight the part of the comment that was between those lists. If I could have a redo, I would drop the lists because those clearly were not helpful. I should take my own advice. The larger goal was to encourage you to become familiar with the research around persuasion and how people’s minds change because I sensed you leaning into a more antagonistic approach which I understand to be counterproductive to effective activism. You are welcome to disagree with that assessment, but I thought it was worth sharing that perspective. If nothing else, I recommend looking at adding David McRaney’s most recent book to your non-fiction reading list, and\or his podcast to your rotation.
I understand you think you know a lot about this subject matter because you listened to a podcast, but it doesn’t seem to have occurred to you that your tone is very condescending and dismissive.
It is certain that, at the very least, Phelps-Roper lacks the expertise or journalistic ability to provide a thorough portrayal of Rowling and the people who oppose her (VERY OBVIOUSLY) transmisist agenda. It is even more certain that Rowling herself hates trans people. I do not consider this language to be too strong. She is funding Posey Parker, a genocidal transmisist who is very open about her desire to force trans people to detransition, and if they won’t do that, throw them in prison. Or worse. And she is willing to throw absolutely everything else under the bus in pursuit of this goal, including women’s reproductive rights. She’s also willing to associate with a woman who started a sexual relationship with a minor (who could not consent under the law in many places) and got pregnant by that child, simply because that woman is as openly hateful of trans people as she is. Rowling is long past the “a few concerns” stage of things, and we should not allow her to pretend her motives are pure.
I think it’s important to critique ideas where important matters of justice are concerned, but to use the inflammatory words “insidious” and “transphobic” is so clearly hyperbolic that it makes you appear unserious. It gives off the aroma of click bait and performative outrage that is such a turn off to anyone not already convinced. If you are preaching to your own choir, I hope it’s gratifying.
What title would you prefer?
I recently listened to the podcast. In many ways I was disappointed with it (and pissed off by it), as well as with Megan, considering her past. While she seeks to avoid repeating the sins of her past, she wound up in the opposite extreme doing the exact same thing. I’m also working my way through the series to analyze them deeper.
I literally stopped episode 1 within about 15 seconds to investigate the sponsor. Fire (thefire.org). The first red flag for me was the free speech absolutism. This is often an indicator of an agenda-driven mission that claims high ideals, but is limited in it’s scope to just being anti-woke. I read the article on their lawsuit against CA. I picked a single quote to investigate, “persons that say they are ‘not a racist’ are in denial.”, and followed it down a rabbit hole. The first thing I noticed was Fire is extremely loath to link to outside sources. This tells me that seek to maintain control over the narrative, via echo chamber. The quote I picked was cut down from a much longer sentence (which is why I left the period in their quote):
“Persons that say they are ‘not a racist’ are in denial of the inequities and racial problems that exist.” (Taken from I. X. Kendi’s book “How to be Antiracist”)
Fire’s misquote means people who claims to not be a racist are denying that they are. The real quote means they’re denying the existence of inequities and racial problems. Those are two vastly different things. I don’t agree with the full sentence either, but Fire changing the context is outright lying and manipulation. (I don’t agree that saying your not a racist is denial of the problems. Racism, at it’s core, is literally the belief in the superiority of one’s race, everything else is a manifestation of that belief. One can simultaneously believe their race is not superior and know that inequality and racism exists. People who aren’t racist can also be infected with racist ideologies that permeate our society repeated ad nauseum – think “Affirmative Action is reverse racism” – and not even realize the origin or full context of these ideologies.)
One shouldn’t be surprised about the lopsided presentation of the podcast given it’s sponsorship. Megan literally sold out. It’s funny how quickly she went down the “dark web” hole. It does have a tempting message that seems shiny and logical on the surface. Until one begins to ask certain questions and doesn’t take them at face value. Smart people are very intelligent at rationalizing their irrationality.
I do believe that JKR doesn’t intend harm, but her extreme focus driven by her horrific past blinds her to the suffering of others (rather than enhancing empathy) and limits her “research” to only that which confirms her biases. Along with the huge array of logical fallacies she commits, she is incapable of understanding that the people who once vilified her didn’t become her allies, they’re using her to justify their hatred of LGBTQ people. If conservatives can separate the T from the rest (a tactic that has taken hold in recent years), then they can separate the rest and regain the ground they “lost” and usher back the pre-Stonewall era of bigotry and hatred that they enjoy so much. Many conservatives and christians don’t even realize that there are eugenicists hiding within their ranks. They play the long game and keep their messages of hatred alive. JKR doesn’t seem to even be aware how she continues to feed this insipid infection of society. I am in no way excusing JKR, ultimately, she made the choices that have hurt a lot of people and has continues to remain willfully blind to broader reality.
“The Free Press is an anti-trans publication with a record of distorting and excluding information that doesn’t fit their harmful narrative”
The amount of projection in this diatribe is something to behold. Even more ironic, considering the latest blog titled, “On Writing White” is coming from a privileged white who regurgitates white talking points in the most white way possible.
You came in with a conclusion, then perused through The Free Press looking for “evidence” to support your conclusion.
Bari Weiss didn’t leave NYT because it was “not conservative—or centrist—enough for her” — she said she left because NYT did not defend her against alleged bullying by colleagues and caving into Twitter critics. This folks, is the self-described “critical thinker” and “skeptic,” who couldn’t bother to spend a few minutes to fact-check — but that of course, wouldn’t fit her narrative. She needs to smear her opponents (how dare someone be critical of my religion?) Then she goes on ranting about FIRE because, gasp, they support free speech! You know free speech — the thing that’s part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Well, little Miss whitey here doesn’t like free speech or Universal Declaration of Human Rights — it hurts her narrative when people can talk back and criticize her ideology. She prefers to go back to the 19th century when fanatic whites like her were free to proselytize and force her religion on others without resistance. Ah, the good ‘ol days!
You know what is “harmful?” A “movement” where its members harass women, who regularly send death and rape threats to women, who use emotional blackmailing, who try to silence critics and get them fired. It’s not surprising that depression among girls and women has skyrocketed, and now white liberal women are the most unhappy group in the country. Congrats — this is the accomplishment of your “movement.”
The rest of the non-WHITE Western world completely rejects your gender ideology — perhaps should stop excluding this information that doesn’t fit your backward narrative.
I note that Rebekah Kohlhepp is a Middle Class, Heterosexual, CIS, White Woman. Need any more be said?
I’m proud of you for noticing